The French electrical code: books and websites.
-
RobertArthur
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:10 pm
- Location: Nièvre
The French electrical code: books and websites.
@ Hughnique, I see your point. It's not my taste, but trunking these days is not too ugly. And for an aménagemet des combles or bringing electricity to a barn there is another option: install a tableau secondaire. As soon as you run out of capacitity of the existing circuits prises and éclairage there is indeed an aesthetic problem, where to hide those extra gaines, construction problems.
-
hughnique
- Posts: 1410
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:47 pm
- Location: Saumur
The French electrical code: books and websites.
Must admit that doesn't look too bad, but I bet it's not cheap, and of course providing you can get all the little extra cosmetic touches, to finish it off.
-
RobertArthur
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:10 pm
- Location: Nièvre
The French electrical code: books and websites.
About electrical codes in Europe, no, not about the ring circuit compared to the others. About what surprised me when I visited Paris for the first time, in the sixties. In our hotel in Montmartre, a lot of creaking wooden stairs and every floor equipped with something that would not have looked out of place in a doll's house: a wooden board with little fuse holders and a tangle of thin wiring with cotton insulation. In our hotel room only one light switch and one socket. Warning in red: Sèche-cheveux interdit! The necessity of having all kinds of signs with rules on how to act in case of fire slowly began to dawn on me.
Since that time every update of the French regs made them to what they are today: rather complex, trying to cover every conceivable security and safety situation. To be on the safe side so many detailed regs that you sometimes wonder, isn't this overdoing it a bit?
The separate circuits for prises and éclairage take a lot of wiring, The price of copper sky-high these days, I heard electricians from other countries in the EU complaining: this is expensive, almost twice the wiring we need in our country. Taking into account the extinction of Mr. Edison's invention, only LEDs allowed, the power consumption of this kind of lighting is very low.. Why not the same circuit? Also an eco benefit: there is simply not enough copper in the world, shortages on the horizon, further price rises.
Germany is known for it's strict bureaucracy, regs are regs, "Gründlichkeit". Nevertheless the VDE electrical code doesn't see any harm in using the same circuit for both purposes. No detailed prescriptions about the exact number of sockets and points d'éclairage as in France. They have a more practical approach, a quote:
"
What empirical values can you count on?
" The following empirical values are often used for normal use of the socket in a flat and fusing the circuits with 16 amps each. Calculate an average load of 200 to 300 watts per single socket and 300 to 500 watts per double socket. If you divide the maximum possible total load of approximately 3,600 watts by these individual loads, you get the number of sockets per fuse. Bear in mind, however, that even one heavy consumer in the circuit can throw the planning out of kilter. If it is foreseeable that several consumers with high loads are to be operated simultaneously on the respective circuit, reduce the number of sockets in this circuit already in the planning."
Almost the same in the Netherlands: each earth-leakage breaker followed by a max of four MCBs of 16 A, feeding a mix of sockets and lights. And of course in both countries also something the French are particularly fond of: circuits specialisés. But not so many.
A last remark: what takes them so long here in France to finally say au revoir to the AC type Interrupteur Différentiel? In many countries in the EU alrady phased out in the late nineties by the A type or better.
To conclude: questions to forget. Why? The answer has been given by Charles de Gaulle in a slightly other context: " Il faut prendre les choses comme elles sont, car on ne fait pas de politique autrement que sur des réalités. "
Since that time every update of the French regs made them to what they are today: rather complex, trying to cover every conceivable security and safety situation. To be on the safe side so many detailed regs that you sometimes wonder, isn't this overdoing it a bit?
The separate circuits for prises and éclairage take a lot of wiring, The price of copper sky-high these days, I heard electricians from other countries in the EU complaining: this is expensive, almost twice the wiring we need in our country. Taking into account the extinction of Mr. Edison's invention, only LEDs allowed, the power consumption of this kind of lighting is very low.. Why not the same circuit? Also an eco benefit: there is simply not enough copper in the world, shortages on the horizon, further price rises.
Germany is known for it's strict bureaucracy, regs are regs, "Gründlichkeit". Nevertheless the VDE electrical code doesn't see any harm in using the same circuit for both purposes. No detailed prescriptions about the exact number of sockets and points d'éclairage as in France. They have a more practical approach, a quote:
"
What empirical values can you count on?
" The following empirical values are often used for normal use of the socket in a flat and fusing the circuits with 16 amps each. Calculate an average load of 200 to 300 watts per single socket and 300 to 500 watts per double socket. If you divide the maximum possible total load of approximately 3,600 watts by these individual loads, you get the number of sockets per fuse. Bear in mind, however, that even one heavy consumer in the circuit can throw the planning out of kilter. If it is foreseeable that several consumers with high loads are to be operated simultaneously on the respective circuit, reduce the number of sockets in this circuit already in the planning."
Almost the same in the Netherlands: each earth-leakage breaker followed by a max of four MCBs of 16 A, feeding a mix of sockets and lights. And of course in both countries also something the French are particularly fond of: circuits specialisés. But not so many.
A last remark: what takes them so long here in France to finally say au revoir to the AC type Interrupteur Différentiel? In many countries in the EU alrady phased out in the late nineties by the A type or better.
To conclude: questions to forget. Why? The answer has been given by Charles de Gaulle in a slightly other context: " Il faut prendre les choses comme elles sont, car on ne fait pas de politique autrement que sur des réalités. "
-
RobertArthur
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:10 pm
- Location: Nièvre
The French electrical code: books and websites.
About the Disjoncteur de Branchement, its function and behaviour compared with the much less tolerant overcharge characteristics of the smartmeter LINKY. I tried to summarize the essentials in this answer some time ago.
Department Lost & Found: on one of my hard drives several pictures of the most common type of the Baco / Schlumberger made single-phase main switches. The 30-45-60 amps type - nice Linky green meter seals - and its little brother, 15-30-45 amps. Both available in a standard version and a a less trigger happy S-version (Sélectif) to go hand in hand with RCCBs of 30 mA. It reacts with a small time delay, enabling the 30 mA RCCBs downstream to go first. No rules without excepetion: sometimes a sudden short to earth is enough to invite the Prince of Darkness - not Lucas this time - as a surprise guest.
Pictures of the 15-30-45 A type with all covers in place and the lower cover, the so called 'côté client', removed. Allowed because this is where the domain of the NFC 15-100 regs begins, responsiblity of the owner from there. By the way, switch in position 'off'.... And a picture deep inside, all covers removed, not allowed. Inside a slider switch for your puissance souscrite.
Department Lost & Found: on one of my hard drives several pictures of the most common type of the Baco / Schlumberger made single-phase main switches. The 30-45-60 amps type - nice Linky green meter seals - and its little brother, 15-30-45 amps. Both available in a standard version and a a less trigger happy S-version (Sélectif) to go hand in hand with RCCBs of 30 mA. It reacts with a small time delay, enabling the 30 mA RCCBs downstream to go first. No rules without excepetion: sometimes a sudden short to earth is enough to invite the Prince of Darkness - not Lucas this time - as a surprise guest.
Pictures of the 15-30-45 A type with all covers in place and the lower cover, the so called 'côté client', removed. Allowed because this is where the domain of the NFC 15-100 regs begins, responsiblity of the owner from there. By the way, switch in position 'off'.... And a picture deep inside, all covers removed, not allowed. Inside a slider switch for your puissance souscrite.
-
RobertArthur
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:10 pm
- Location: Nièvre
The French electrical code: books and websites.
What's new this year? A major revision of the French electrical code NFC 15-100, coming into force in September 2025. Perhaps it is good to briefly touch on where we are coming from. On Dec. 5, 2002 an updated version of the NF C 15-100 regulations was published. Followed by small changes, sometimes larger ones. But always building on the structure of that 2002 edition. From little fiches d'interpretation to the so called Amendements.
After twenty years there has been a solid shake-up. The structure has been changed. There is an almost unchanged introductory chapter followed by new, more tightly thematically edited main chapters. Previously sometimes scattered perspectives were bundled by topic. Which will make future revisions easier: no need to start with a revision of the entire structure. Reassuring: for the electrical installations in homes hardly anything changes.
What surprised me is that the AC type earth leakage circuit breaker, replaced decades ago elsewhere in the EU by a somewhat better suited to modern times A type, still cheerfully opens the row of permitted interrupteurs différentiel.
In 2013 President Hollande began a simplification operation, une des priorités de son quinquennat. Announced with much drum roll and trumpet sound, of everything related to the exuberantly outgrowing French legislation. A glimmer of hope on the horizon. The end of a small but interesting subsection in the French regs: the requirement for a wired communications network in new electrical installations? The office of the 1980s and 1990s now in every French home to turn la France into one big Silicon Valley with more and more digital whizzkids. But why use legislation primarily focused on electrical safety as a vehicle to accomplish that? Two entirely separate disciplines under one roof? At the time, the CONSUEL was not particularly happy about it. President Hollande's simplification operation was an uphill battle, not very successful. So the mix of safety requirements and sweet ict dreams stayed under one roof, another example of French governmental practices, a forced marriage, cohabitation. Not the expected "choc de simplification", not at all. And today, again ten years later, Wi-FI is everybody's darling, what do we see? In the new version even more detailed regs for les installations des réseaux de communication. A lot of expensive hardware solutions needed to keep the production lines of Legrand, Schneider, Hager and others busy.
Having mentioned the three usual suspects now to their summaries of the new NFC - C 15-00 electrical code.
Legrand: Norme NF C 15-100: on vous dit tout.
Hager: Tout savoir sur la norme NF C 15-100.
Schneider Electric, Guide septembre 2024.
After twenty years there has been a solid shake-up. The structure has been changed. There is an almost unchanged introductory chapter followed by new, more tightly thematically edited main chapters. Previously sometimes scattered perspectives were bundled by topic. Which will make future revisions easier: no need to start with a revision of the entire structure. Reassuring: for the electrical installations in homes hardly anything changes.
What surprised me is that the AC type earth leakage circuit breaker, replaced decades ago elsewhere in the EU by a somewhat better suited to modern times A type, still cheerfully opens the row of permitted interrupteurs différentiel.
In 2013 President Hollande began a simplification operation, une des priorités de son quinquennat. Announced with much drum roll and trumpet sound, of everything related to the exuberantly outgrowing French legislation. A glimmer of hope on the horizon. The end of a small but interesting subsection in the French regs: the requirement for a wired communications network in new electrical installations? The office of the 1980s and 1990s now in every French home to turn la France into one big Silicon Valley with more and more digital whizzkids. But why use legislation primarily focused on electrical safety as a vehicle to accomplish that? Two entirely separate disciplines under one roof? At the time, the CONSUEL was not particularly happy about it. President Hollande's simplification operation was an uphill battle, not very successful. So the mix of safety requirements and sweet ict dreams stayed under one roof, another example of French governmental practices, a forced marriage, cohabitation. Not the expected "choc de simplification", not at all. And today, again ten years later, Wi-FI is everybody's darling, what do we see? In the new version even more detailed regs for les installations des réseaux de communication. A lot of expensive hardware solutions needed to keep the production lines of Legrand, Schneider, Hager and others busy.
Having mentioned the three usual suspects now to their summaries of the new NFC - C 15-00 electrical code.
Legrand: Norme NF C 15-100: on vous dit tout.
Hager: Tout savoir sur la norme NF C 15-100.
Schneider Electric, Guide septembre 2024.
-
hughnique
- Posts: 1410
- Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:47 pm
- Location: Saumur
The French electrical code: books and websites.
Thank Christ I am retired, we had a diagnostic this week, socket at high level by the water heater has no earth?? There is no socket, merely a junction box which feeds a low voltage shower extractor fan and that is double insulated, so doesn't require an earth. Strange again no lead anywhere, I seem to recollect putting a bit of lead flashing around the bedroom windows and it is clearly visible. Do these diagnostic merchants have a clue, give them a Fluke meter to play with and they know it all.
-
basquesteve
- Posts: 156
- Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:30 pm
- Location: Pyrénées-Atlantiques
The French electrical code: books and websites.
Thank yourself lucky I have bought 3 homes with no Earths on any thing Some had no piped water or a fosse septic I should not complain though my first French home cost 20,000 pounds , Now in my forth built in 1966 with no earth 4 years back
-
RobertArthur
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2021 3:10 pm
- Location: Nièvre
The French electrical code: books and websites.
Ohm's law, only one, and so many different electrical codes, wiring practices and grid solutions. From medium voltage (between 1 and 35 kV) to something less dangerous.
-
widge
- Posts: 114
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2025 8:52 am
The French electrical code: books and websites.
When we moved here in 2006, we bought what had been an old bergerie converted into a holiday home many years before, we new it was a big project to turn it into a full time house.
Although we were only paying for a 6kw supply, it actually had a three phase supply. I suppose I should have got them to change it out right in the beginning, but didn't partially becouse I didnt realise.that this wasn't the norm, and partially becouse I thought EDF would take one look at the wireing that was there and cut us off, most of the original wireing was in blue and black, and the distribution panel which had no cover, was a mixture of fuses and the odd breaker.
Although not an electrician I had served an apprenticeship in electronics and electrical engineering, so wasn't totaly green.
I picked up various leaflets and bought the Readers Digest book of bricolage, which had a big section on electrical work and standards.
Then set about rewireing the house as close as possible to the regs.
I seperated the board by the three phases, cave, main living floor and attic bedrooms, to try and avoid any cross phase issues.
All was fine until a thunderstorm in the september, when a lightning strike destroyed EDF's three phase master switch, luckly for us the phase in the bedroom was still ok, so with some extension leads could power the fridge and freezer.
Next day, EDF arrived and replaced the switch, but said that we are only paying for single phase 6kw supply but no problems he would put in a request for it to be changed.
We didn't hear anything until the January when EDF rang to say could the come the next day.
They arrived changed the meter and master switch. They were then faced with two tails coming out of the supply and four tails coming out of the obviously new distrobution board.
He looked at me and said, did you do all the new distribution board, I hesitantly said yes, thinking I might be it trouble here, but instead he said so you are happy with what you are doing? I said yes, he then said so I will leave the rest for you to do, and promptly connected the two tails to the four tails with a big screw teminal connector, he then advised us the the day night system would be better for us for the hot water, drew a diagram of where to wire it in to the meter, and rang up and got our contract changed. I realy couldn't beat the service we got.
All we need now is now is electrical sockets and fittings that are fit for purpose, and I hate the new push fit stuff.
Although we were only paying for a 6kw supply, it actually had a three phase supply. I suppose I should have got them to change it out right in the beginning, but didn't partially becouse I didnt realise.that this wasn't the norm, and partially becouse I thought EDF would take one look at the wireing that was there and cut us off, most of the original wireing was in blue and black, and the distribution panel which had no cover, was a mixture of fuses and the odd breaker.
Although not an electrician I had served an apprenticeship in electronics and electrical engineering, so wasn't totaly green.
I picked up various leaflets and bought the Readers Digest book of bricolage, which had a big section on electrical work and standards.
Then set about rewireing the house as close as possible to the regs.
I seperated the board by the three phases, cave, main living floor and attic bedrooms, to try and avoid any cross phase issues.
All was fine until a thunderstorm in the september, when a lightning strike destroyed EDF's three phase master switch, luckly for us the phase in the bedroom was still ok, so with some extension leads could power the fridge and freezer.
Next day, EDF arrived and replaced the switch, but said that we are only paying for single phase 6kw supply but no problems he would put in a request for it to be changed.
We didn't hear anything until the January when EDF rang to say could the come the next day.
They arrived changed the meter and master switch. They were then faced with two tails coming out of the supply and four tails coming out of the obviously new distrobution board.
He looked at me and said, did you do all the new distribution board, I hesitantly said yes, thinking I might be it trouble here, but instead he said so you are happy with what you are doing? I said yes, he then said so I will leave the rest for you to do, and promptly connected the two tails to the four tails with a big screw teminal connector, he then advised us the the day night system would be better for us for the hot water, drew a diagram of where to wire it in to the meter, and rang up and got our contract changed. I realy couldn't beat the service we got.
All we need now is now is electrical sockets and fittings that are fit for purpose, and I hate the new push fit stuff.