Electric Cars - fire risks

[DominicBest]

Apparently not, and this is the problem, EVs are a lot heaver than IC cars, also they accelerate faster, a lot more torque, the standard tyres are wearing down too quick, ie loosing bits of rubber etc on the road, hence more pollution. As for the fire I thought that they were very quick to say it was a diesel car that started the fire .

I disagree about the tyres. The comment about the diesel car came from Bedfordshire’s chief fire officer so I think I will listen to him over you.

The tyre article was in "What Car" Septembers edition if I remember correctly, as for the cause of the fire, as it was a hybrid it could have been a short in the power supply, the car lights etc would have still worked for a while as they would take their power from the battery under the bonnet. As for the fuel diesel burns with a black smoke, petrol does not, as for a battery fire I dont know, but it looked like a very intensive fire, no one mentioned this I hope no one was caught inside at the time, the rear nearside passengers would have had be to very brave to try and get out on that side. Anyhow despite all our theory's we will have to wait for the "Truth" to come out.

Historically EVs were fitted with tyres that placed economy above the level of grip that come as standard on most cars. All new cars are fitted with tyres that take the vehicle’s weight into consideration as well as the speed range that they will operate in. As EVs have become more mainstream and more and more are being bought for their performance and range is increasing all the time it’s not surprising if tyre manufacturers are having to adapt to the market. As to the fire, the chief fire officer wouldn’t have commented on anything that he was pretty sure about and with the heat of that fire the colour of the smoke really is clutching at straws, there was far more than the car’s fuel that was burning and paint, upholstery and tyres are all likely to produce some pretty toxic smoke. Im sorry but I'm not going to stand by and watch people spreading the myth that, there’s a car on fire so it must be an EV.

[tagh]

Had some of the cars in that car park been fuelled by hydrogen or LPG the fireworks would have been seen in Moscow!
Seriously though, the current batteries will be seen as primitive in a few years. And new tyres are already being developed which are more suited to the extra weight and wear of electric cars.

[Hotrodder]

They are being used on commercials already.

[exile]

Had some of the cars in that car park been fuelled by hydrogen or LPG the fireworks would have been seen in Moscow!

LPG would behave much as petrol. If the tank over-pressurises it splits and there a rapid escape of vapour which then most likely explodes. Hydrogen might be somewhat safer since a release would be more likely to just burn - very hot and very intense but contrary to what most people might expect an explosion is rather rare in such conditions.

[L Austin France]

interesting reading

[niemeyjt]

Car parking spaces will have to be bigger because of electric car fires

1960s-era fire safety laws could be inadequate to tackle risks from EV batteries, says report

Car park spaces should become wider and burning electric cars dunked in baths of water, under proposed government guidelines to prevent battery fires spreading out of control.

Ministers have been told that battery-powered vehicles pose a medley of risks in indoor car parks, which could render 1960s-era fire safety laws dangerously out of date.

Areas of concern addressed in a government-commissioned report included explosions of flammable vapour clouds emitted by electric vehicle batteries, as well as jets of fire and toxic water run-off from firefighting.

The report, from consultancy Arup, which makes a series of recommendations for changes to fire safety rules, said that there was a “high degree of uncertainty” about data on the fire risks of electric cars and that it is “not yet understood” whether their batteries become more of a fire hazard with age.

The report suggested that water used to tackle the blazes would need to be contained and treated at a plant before being released into sewage Credit: News Scan

The consultancy has previously advised the Government on a number of infrastructure issues, including how to replace lost fuel duty revenues from electric vehicles with toll roads and higher income tax.

Solutions presented in the report included increased space between parked cars as well as greater distance between indoor car parks to manage the risk of fire spreading between cars and buildings.

It said indoor and multi-story car parks should adopt larger parking bays to help firefighters reach burning vehicles, with one example in the report proposing a 90cm to 1.2 metre gap between vehicles.

It comes as residents of a Labour-run council in London fight to block plans to build an electric bus garage under a development of thousands of new flats amid fears battery fires could cause a “volcano”.

Fires in indoor car parks can cause widespread damage to other vehicles. The Luton Airport car park blaze, though not said to be caused by an electric vehicle, is estimated to have destroyed up to 1,500 cars.

The report, published in July, goes on to detail how water used to put out burning electric cars is contaminated by toxic chemicals in lithium-ion batteries and can pose a “significant ecological impact” in some areas.

It suggested that in these locations that water used to tackle blazes would need to be contained and treated at a plant before being released into sewage.

On top of this, it warned that around 13pc of electric vehicle fires reignite, sometimes hours later and multiple times, adding the fires were harder to extinguish than those of petrol or diesel cars.

Another risk identified by the report is flammable vapour clouds emitted by batteries during a chemical reaction known as “thermal runaway”, when a battery overheats, which are said to potentially result in flash fires, explosions and flaming jets.

While petrol and diesel vehicle fires typically took five minutes to extinguish, electric vehicle fires can take as much as 49 minutes to put out, it said.

It referred to examples trialled in China where burning electric vehicles had been put out by being submerged in external tanks and constructing mobile baths around electric cars to flood their batteries.

It said that battery-powered cars did “not present an increased likelihood of fire” when compared to conventional fuel cars based on current data, but acknowledged that “as electric vehicles age and become more widely used [the] risk of fire may increase.”

The report included responses from the National Fire Chief’s Council (NFCC), which advised of additional risks to firefighters due to potentially limited access to a burning vehicle in a car park.

While the NFCC was said to be reviewing its approach to putting out electric car fires, new equipment to tackle electric blazes is still developing and “limited” in the UK, according to the report.

The majority of fire safety guidance for England’s car parks has not been “updated significantly” since the 1960s and may not fully reflect risks posed by modern cars, including electric cars, the report warned.

Indoor car parks are common in urban areas and are frequently used to house vehicles in the basements of apartment complexes and at shopping centres and airports.

Simon Tudor, director of London Fire Consultants, a fire safety risk assessor, said more research needs to be undertaken to bring fire safety laws up to modern standards.

He said: “I think more guidance needs to be put into place with regards to charging points particularly with residential accommodation.

“I don’t think we fully appreciate [that] technology is moving along. I don’t think I would like to try and attempt to fight a fire with a portable extinguisher on an electric vehicle.

“Obviously you’ve got an increased risk with people sleeping in an apartment on top of car parks packed full of charging electric cars.”

He added: “The high-risk areas are where you get a block of flats and you get an underground car park.

“That’s going to have a detrimental effect if you don’t have detection”.

He said that placing burning electric cars in tanks of water to put out fires was “going to be very difficult to do obviously in an underground car park”.

A government spokesman said: “There is no evidence that electric vehicle fires are more likely to occur than petrol or diesel vehicle fires and it remains safe to have them in covered car parks.

“This guidance is part of our commitment to keep fire prevention, fire detection and fire-fighting under review for all vehicles and provides the industry with best practice on how to keep car parks safe.”

source: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/net-z ... es-spread/

Two photos - a BMW EV being lowered into a portable water tank (in Germany)

bmwfire1.jpeg

bmwfire2.jpeg

[Hotrodder]

Thanks for posting this info. It won't please the "Save the planet" groupies or the people that have already committed to the new EVs but it may be of interest to anyone thinking of buying one of these over-hyped solutions to global warming.

Archive today will crack the paywall if you want to verify the content of N's post.https://archive.ph/

[Bayleaf]

Random comment - saw an article yesterday that says your old "high days and holidays" cars are more eco-friendly than modern SUVs!

[Hotrodder]

That may well be because the mileage covered with high days and holidays use will be far less than using a modern clone as a daily driver.
If public transport for all areas was freely available, frequent, and very cheap there would be little need for a daily driver. But then that would result in a big loss of taxation.

[Bayleaf]

Ah, it seems I misqoted. This is what I meant to say!
https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-c ... 30942.html

"A new SUV purchased in 2023 ends up releasing more harmful carbon dioxide (CO2) per kilometre than a conventional engine car bought in 2013, a study by a climate charity found."