Ive seriously underestimated my tax 2023

[L Austin France]

I'm totally befuddled reading the posts above. People on state pensions paying tax and social contributions? I never have. I thought there was some sort of double taxation agreement between the two countries. If monsieur taxe man comes a knockin' wanting back taxes he'll have to take it in blood.

Fret not!
The double taxation agreement exists so for Joe Public (Nat Health, teachers etc employees get taxed in UK for some reason) who gets UK state pension there's no UK tax & the amount of pension is accounted for in your French return where if you're a SI holder no social contributions will (should) be taken. Any tax payable is dependant on your total worldwide income. I don't pay UK tax on my private pensions but account for them in my French return. No UK tax is payable on our jointly owned commercial rental property as it's just about covered by our personal allowances but somehow the French taxman gets a cut.
That's my take on it but could be wrong as Mme LAF deals with this sort of thing, baits the Tax Dragons their lair & boy, is she good at it, so I leave these sort of things to her.

[exile]

I'm totally befuddled reading the posts above. People on state pensions paying tax and social contributions? I never have. I thought there was some sort of double taxation agreement between the two countries. If monsieur taxe man comes a knockin' wanting back taxes he'll have to take it in blood.

Fret not!
The double taxation agreement exists so for Joe Public (Nat Health, teachers etc employees get taxed in UK for some reason) who gets UK state pension there's no UK tax & the amount of pension is accounted for in your French return where if you're a SI holder no social contributions will (should) be taken. Any tax payable is dependant on your total worldwide income. I don't pay UK tax on my private pensions but account for them in my French return. No UK tax is payable on our jointly owned commercial rental property as it's just about covered by our personal allowances but somehow the French taxman gets a cut.
That's my take on it but could be wrong as Mme LAF deals with this sort of thing, baits the Tax Dragons their lair & boy, is she good at it, so I leave these sort of things to her.

Sorry LAF but I at least have found your post confusing to the point of me reading it as being wrong in some detail areas.

The UK OAP is taxed in France for French residents. The Double Taxation Treaty (DTT) ensures that they are not also taxed in the UK. OAP pensions have to be declared as income in France. If this is your sole source of income then you should not break the French zero tax band until perhaps last year (2023 for declaration this year*) and this (for next years declaration).


People with employment pensions may find that these are taxed in the UK if you have been working in a state run organisation:
Civil servants
Forces pensions
Teachers - if employed by the state but not if employed in private organisations.
NHS - some positions are taxed in the UK. Others are not. OH receives an NHS pension but is not covered by the DTT to be taxed in the UK.

For those above, the DTT ensures that the income is taxed in the UK but is not taxed in France.

Other UK pension incomes** are taxed or taxable in France and should not be taxed in the UK, although some (lazy) pension organisations will deduct tax in the UK which you have to claim back from HMRC.

* The big increase in UK pensions from April last year might just push you over the limit depending in part on the date you receive your pension.

** including those who have QROPS pensions from an original UK source.

[L Austin France]

I'm totally befuddled reading the posts above. People on state pensions paying tax and social contributions? I never have. I thought there was some sort of double taxation agreement between the two countries. If monsieur taxe man comes a knockin' wanting back taxes he'll have to take it in blood.

Fret not!
The double taxation agreement exists so for Joe Public (Nat Health, teachers etc employees get taxed in UK for some reason) who gets UK state pension there's no UK tax & the amount of pension is accounted for in your French return where if you're a SI holder no social contributions will (should) be taken. Any tax payable is dependant on your total worldwide income. I don't pay UK tax on my private pensions but account for them in my French return. No UK tax is payable on our jointly owned commercial rental property as it's just about covered by our personal allowances but somehow the French taxman gets a cut.
That's my take on it but could be wrong as Mme LAF deals with this sort of thing, baits the Tax Dragons their lair & boy, is she good at it, so I leave these sort of things to her.

Sorry LAF but I at least have found your post confusing to the point of me reading it as being wrong in some detail areas.

The UK OAP is taxed in France for French residents. The Double Taxation Treaty (DTT) ensures that they are not also taxed in the UK. OAP pensions have to be declared as income in France. If this is your sole source of income then you should not break the French zero tax band until perhaps last year (2023 for declaration this year*) and this (for next years declaration).


People with employment pensions may find that these are taxed in the UK if you have been working in a state run organisation:
Civil servants
Forces pensions
Teachers - if employed by the state but not if employed in private organisations.
NHS - some positions are taxed in the UK. Others are not. OH receives an NHS pension but is not covered by the DTT to be taxed in the UK.

For those above, the DTT ensures that the income is taxed in the UK but is not taxed in France.

Other UK pension incomes** are taxed or taxable in France and should not be taxed in the UK, although some (lazy) pension organisations will deduct tax in the UK which you have to claim back from HMRC.

* The big increase in UK pensions from April last year might just push you over the limit depending in part on the date you receive your pension.

** including those who have QROPS pensions from an original UK source.

Quickly reading your reply I thought that was what I said but maybe not as succinctly as you.
No worries , I'm sure you'll put things right.

[elsie]

Ive just checked my declaration input on the govt site and they have taken into account my emergency additional payment that I made so that’s good, but my head is spinning so I’ve had a first go and depending on which boxes I tick, the figure varies by up to 500 euros of tax payable. So I’m stepping away for a while. I’ll have another look probably in a couple of days but I want to get it put to bed before the 30th because Orange are coming to cut us over to fibre so I don’t want to risk no phone line!

There is a step-by-step guide in English by Isabelle Want of BH-Assurances for a past year on how to complete the tax form online which should still be relevant for most declarations https://bh-assurances.fr/how-to-declare ... ax-online/
Isabelle Want has e-mailed the PDF version for the current year to those who have signed up to their newsletter.

Tax scale What is the income tax? gives worked examples of basic tax calculations for different family situations

[DominicBest]

Teachers - if employed by the state but not if employed in private organisations.

I don’t think that it is as simple as that. Many teachers have years in the private sector included in their ‘government’ pension because their contributions were managed by Teachers Pensions. Those who paid into private pension schemes and that will include a lot of state school teachers who opted out of TP after a certain Mrs Thatcher allowed it will not have ‘government’ pensions. It’s not who employed them, private or state that matters, it’s the pension scheme they paid into.

[DominicBest]

I'm totally befuddled reading the posts above. People on state pensions paying tax and social contributions? I never have. I thought there was some sort of double taxation agreement between the two countries. If monsieur taxe man comes a knockin' wanting back taxes he'll have to take it in blood.

French residents who have a U.K. government pension and an OAP are quite likely to be paying a lot of tax on their OAP. The tax on a government pension is paid in the U.K. and will more than likely take up the tax allowance with U.K. tax being paid on the balance. The tax on the OAP is paid in France and the tax band is set by the tax payers total income so it’s quite likely that at lest part of the OAP will be taxed at 30%. I think that for British residents the OAP might be considered first so until recently it never exceeded the tax allowance. Pensioners with a workplace pension, government or not might then not have any tax allowance left to offset the tax due on that pension.
British pensioners in Spain on only an OAP are hit worse as the pension is taxed in Spain and the Spanish tax allowance before paying tax is about half the U.K. rate.

[elsie]

DominicBest, if you are UK resident tax is paid on the whole of the OAP + government pension income.
If you live in France, UK tax is paid on your government employment pension. Both your OAP and government pensions are declared and used for the French tax calculation. There is a credit for the UK tax paid on the government pension which is deducted in the calculation of the tax due (but because of the way the French tax is calculated may not be exactly the same figure in the final result).

So there is really little difference in the way the tax is calculated in both countries except for the different tax rates, tax allowances tax bands and the actual calculation to give a result. The double taxation agreement means you don't pay full tax in both countries for the government pension but are given the allowance paid in one country.
It is the overall tax rate which is of real interest, not the highest band used in the tax calculation.

[DominicBest]

DominicBest, if you are UK resident tax is paid on the whole of the OAP + government pension income.
If you live in France, UK tax is paid on your government employment pension. Both your OAP and government pensions are declared and used for the French tax calculation. There is a credit for the UK tax paid on the government pension which is deducted in the calculation of the tax due (but because of the way the French tax is calculated may not be exactly the same figure in the final result).

So there is really little difference in the way the tax is calculated in both countries except for the different tax rates, tax allowances tax bands and the actual calculation to give a result. The double taxation agreement means you don't pay full tax in both countries for the government pension but are given the allowance paid in one country.
It is the overall tax rate which is of real interest, not the highest band used in the tax calculation.

I think you have totally misunderstood my post. I was simply explaining why some of us pay a lot of tax on our OAP. I understand how the tax system works thank you. Did yo7 understand my point about teachers pensions?

[elsie]

You are not paying a lot of tax on your OAP. You are paying tax on part of your income at the 30% rate because the receipt of the OAP has increased your total taxable income.
If in England you would have been in the band to pay 20% on additional income. You would also have been paying 20% on your taxable income over £12,570 whereas in France you would have paid 11% between 11295€ and 28797€ and 30% thereafter. But as you indicated, even making simple comparisons between countries is difficult, e.g. whether it is for an individual or a household, double taxation allowances, etc.

It is the overall percentage tax paid compared to taxable income which is of real value in making any between country comparisons - which appears on the French tax assessment.