Mask wearing most effective

[Pathca]

There has been a big protest in Rotterdam tonight with apparently at least one fatality

[Bayleaf]

Mr B read somewhere yesterday (usually Reuters or Apple) that a small, poorer country's cases are rocketing, and they've barely had any vaccinations - but it's not being mentioned anywhere and he can't remember the name of the country!

I also use Worldometer - but can't work out which country he's referring to. Interesting to note, having looked at the figures daily for possibly nearly a year now (man, that's crazy in itself!), the average global deaths are still between 7 to 9k every day. Russia seems particularly bad at the moment.

Most of the problem is down to people continuing to travel en masse, and many now refusing to wear a mask in busy places, especially as they think they're totally protected by the vaccine.

What I have seen of human nature over the last two years, this virus is here to stay. We cull Nature as and when it suits us to control numbers. I think Nature is biting back. "Survival of the fittest"?

[niemeyjt]

Talking to a Russian friend, they have to use the locally produced Sputnik V vaccine. She is in pharma, and won't touch it herself - apparently more due to production techniques rather than efficacy. As a result, Russian vaccination rates are low:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/co ... HE~FRA~RUS

I like the "Our World in Data" site - it covers many stats, not just Covid - https://ourworldindata.org/

Looking at the greatest number of cases per million people we see Germany does not appear on the top 20 yet is taking measures whereas UK does and isn't. Note the first non-European country is Barbados at 9th place.

2021-11-20_08-15.png

Another stat is that vaccination rates in the UK and France are broadly similar (the UK is a smidgen ahead) - yet compare the rates of cases!

2021-11-20_08-29.png

I am sure mask-wearing plays a part in that - and as you say also the vaccine has been hyped as the magic bullet.

[Blaze]

Bayleaf Guadeloupe relies heavily on French money, aid and tourism. However there, and in other poorer places like Martinique, there is a culture steeped in superstition and many are not only refusing the vaccine, but are blocking roads to the hospital, and creating havoc and destruction. The death rate is rocketing and the hospital cannot cope. The authorities and medical staff fear for their lives.

One problem worldwide is that people are insisting that being forced, or even just encouraged to be vaccinated is an infringement of their liberty. They insist that they have the right to decide what goes into their bodies. As someone has already said, no-one objected to children having smallpox vaccinations or BCG, so why now ? It's not as if research on vaccines for coronaviruses started last year ... Even vaccinated, we can still be infected though normalement the symptoms should be far less severe. This has been made clear since the vaccines were first rolled out but people are selective in what they want to hear.

[niemeyjt]

I think that children and adult vaccination are different.

Children are generally deemed not capable of making decisions as to their health (OK, we have Gillick in the UK but that does not apply to babies) so parents or other responsible adults make the call for them on vaccines and other medical procedures.

Adults, on the other hand, are mostly deemed capable of rational decisions (OK, you might argue anti-vaxers are not capable of rational decisions).

By all means restrict the activities of the unvaccinated (or make vaccination a prerequisite, whichever way you argue it) - but are we really wanting to see squads going around demanding vaccine certificates and forcibly injecting refuseniks?

And before anyone thinks I am anti-vax, you could not be more wrong. All my children had everything going (including vitamin K IIRC for the eldest), I have any vaccine going and I think my ongoing issues may be as a result of long covid contracted as a result of a failure by the State to provide my cohort with vaccines in a timely manner.

I think there is a demo in town this afternoon - the buses are disrupted - and I am now wondering if this is another anti-vax protest. I shall not be participating!

[Blaze]

By all means restrict the activities of the unvaccinated (or make vaccination a prerequisite, whichever way you argue it) - but are we really wanting to see squads going around demanding vaccine certificates and forcibly injecting refuseniks?

Of course you can't forcibly inject refuseniks but the pass sanitaire system seems to be working well in France as a prerequisite for certain activities.

I see on the BBC website that "Unvaccinated players will not be allowed to compete at the 2022 Australian Open, says tournament director Craig Tiley".
"Defending men's champion Novak Djokovic has said he does not want to publicly reveal his vaccination status.
"Novak knows he will have to be vaccinated to play," Tiley said."
Presumably spectators will be required to be vaccinated as well.

It's interesting that your own health issues could be long Covid. It seems difficult to diagnose because the symptoms vary so much and affects everyone differently. I hope it gets sorted out for you though I imagine the best way to treat it is not yet known ...

[niemeyjt]

Of course you can't forcibly inject refuseniks but the pass sanitaire system seems to be working well in France as a prerequisite for certain activities.

Exactly - France is not compulsorily vaccinating people - just making it restrictive for those who don't. That is the way to go.

At present it is unclear how Austria is going to make vaccination compulsory - and without wishing to invoke Godwin's Law given that country's past history it will need to be done with extreme sensitivity.

[Spardo]

and without wishing to invoke Godwin's Law

Had to look that up, J, but you are right and I agree that France has got it right.

[exile]

Yet despite that cases are starting to rise sharply on a trajectory parallel to Austria and Germany.

I fear we may be in for a bumpy ride on the run up to Christmas.

[niemeyjt]

You're cheerful!

I would say whilst the current trajectory looks similar if you look at my graph above there was a peak in France in August / September whereas not in Austria & Germany.